Often when you are raging about something you missed from the past of WoW, it is easy to forget others have never seen what the hell you are whining about and to them it is moot.
Case in point. A comment I received from my pal Jardal regarding my last post.
jardal said... I never got to high level play until Wrath, but I gotta say... I like the idea of CC, but not how it has been done in the past.
In the past you brought a mage, a priest, or a hunter as your DPS cause... well... you needed CC. (or so I hear)
They're adding more CC to other classes, but I want ways to do these new instances without someone getting kicked because we have no CC.
First, thank you, Jardal for your comment. You bring a valid point and hey, you got me to write another post! Win on both counts.
See, since I am thinking of this from the perspective of someone who had experienced the very phenomenon Jardal feared, I realized I may have not explained or expressed how CC would/could be in Cata.
I am not in the beta and thus can not give an accurate account, but I truly think what Jardal fears- people getting kicked or being denied to raid- is not going to happen.
During all of Vanilla Wow and most of Burning Crusade though, I would have agreed and often saw many people left out in the cold because they couldn't sap or sheep ( at the time the two more reliable forms of CC).
However, much like the homogenization we have experienced in Wrath, the same will apply to CC in Cata. At the moment, every class has a form of CC. Granted, some are more relatable, but each class will have something in their tool box they can bring.
When CC is needed, often you will need only a few at time and now, most of the CC spells affect more than one type of mob. By the time Wrath came out the following have been given the classes (taken from WoWwiki, because I am lazy and they did a better job). My comment is in bold.
Control Abilities can be re-applied an unlimited number of times, and take a mob effectively out of combat as long as the CCer wants to:
- Mage - Polymorph (beasts, critters and humanoids only)
- Hunter - Freezing Trap (most types of mob, requires good skill to chain trap-I believe you can no longer chain trap “cry”), Wyvern Sting (talent ability)
- Warlock - Banish (demons/elementals), Enslave Demon (demons only), Seduction (Pet ability, Humanoids only)
- Priest - Shackle Undead (undead only)
- Druid - Hibernate (beasts and dragonkin only), Entangling Roots (Usable indoor since Patch 3.0.2)
- Paladin - Repentance (humanoids, undead, dragonkin, giants and demons only)
- Shaman - Hex
(humanoids and beasts only)
These Secondary CC Abilities can control a mob for some time, but either break easily, need frequent reapplication or have other restrictions which make their continued use impractical, and therefore cannot be generally used to take a mob out of combat indefinitely:
- Mage - Frost Nova and other frost spells
- Priest - Mind Control (humanoids only), Psychic Scream, Mind Soothe
- Rogue - Sap (humanoids only rank 1-3, Humanoids, Beasts, Demons and Dragonkin rank 4, cannot be applied in combat), Blind, and various stuns and stun-lock tactics
- Druid - Cyclone, Soothe Animal, and some stuns
- Paladin - Turn Evil (undead and demons only), some stuns
- Hunter - Pet's stun and various root/slow/stun shots
- Warlock - Fear
- Warrior - various stuns
- Death Knight - Chains of Ice
Now, from here to the release of Cata, we may see some changes to these spells, but I firmly believe no one will be excluded because they don’t bring a certain CC. Just before the release of Wrath, with the addition of Repentance and druids being able to use Entangling Roots indoors, people were able to bring whatever toon they wanted to an instance or raid. I am sure when everyone starts to use their CC spells again, it will be the same way.
Blizzard has shown us they really want us to ‘bring the player not the class’ and I don’t see that changing.
What do you guys think? Anyone in the beta ready to say “Nay, they are screwing the pooch!” or “Yes, it is just like you are saying.”
Haha, oh man, I totally forgot about Hibernate (which basically tells you the state of CC), I used to love hibernating dragonkin while I pick up quest items.
ReplyDeleteI've actually been following Gravity's coverage (pwnwear.com), since we share a class and role and all, and apparently yes there are some pulls where CC's necessary. However, it's questionable how much of this was due to the instance being tuned to require CC, and how much was due to the fact that DKs had little AOE tanking ability in early beta due to losing some core talents. In fact, his opinion's changed on the matter, and there's still a lot of AOE going around - especially on bosses with waves of adds, but even on some trash.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like rather than completely eliminating AOE pulls, Blizzard has elected to complement the AOE with some pulls where AOE just won't work. Which is fine - what's the point in abilities like Bladestorm or Holy Wrath if you can't ever use them without breaking CC? - but once we're at heroic levels, I foresee a lot of spoiled butthurt puggers who grew up on Wrath quitting because they can't just lawnmower through trash anymore, and can't tell pulls where you need CC from ones where you can just round 'em up and strike 'em down. :)
That said - one important group of abilities I'd also include in CC include interrupts. Lately it seems like only rogues know how to kick; I know I'm very twitchy with my Mind Freeze button, hunters' Silencing Shot is going to be free to fire in terms of Focus, ret paladins are actually gaining an interrupt (letting them choose between Repentance and an interrupt, or picking both if they want to) and warriors & mages are actually getting an incentive to Pummel or Counterspell (in the form of a damage boost after interruption).
It's a good time for utility abilities, and I'm looking forward to using those abilities I basically only get to bust out for the Lich King or PvP.
@Jardal
ReplyDeleteLOL, you and me both! I totally forgot about Hibernate until I saw it on the list then I went "D'OH". I will look forward to seeing those dragons sleep again :D.
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ReplyDeleteWarrior stuns are basically only for protection warriors. DPS Warriors CC option is a fear which is being made single target in Cataclysm.
ReplyDelete@Stop
ReplyDeleteThis is excellent news! I love the fact that they are forcing you to think about the pulls and giving some variations between CC and AOE pulls.
Interrupts! Ugh! So full of fail. I had thought of them but didn't included them because they were in my mind short term CC, but still very much valid forms,especially when you are trying to stop a mob from casting a horrible spell or effect. Just saying interrupts reminds of Shade of Aran.
Just reading your last sentence is getting me really excited to play Cata, just so I can whip out a trap. Hell, I might even level a mage again so I can get all the cool poly forms :D
@Stop's "what's the point in abilities like Bladestorm or Holy Wrath if you can't ever use them without breaking CC?"
ReplyDeleteIf I could consecrate without breaking CC (and I could, mostly [no, sheep! Stay out of the... ]) in the tightly-packed BC dungeons, then you can bladestorm and/or holy wrath, too. Of course, there were two big reasons for CC in BC: those mobs hit way harder, but as folks geared that became less of a problem. The big thing was that a warrior's thunderclap could only hit four targets (guess which four!) with cleave only hitting two (at least you got to pick one of those) and a bear's swipe only hit three targets (you could get a little AoE threat by opening with Hurricane). Then they made dungeons like Shattered Halls and Magister's Terrace with six or seven mob pulls.
And don't forget, back then all the AoE attacks were pretty wimpy, aside from Seed of Corruption, generally not scaling with anything aside from spellpower (or AP, in Volley's case), and that poorly. As a general rule, any time it was actually faster to AoE (as opposed to sequential single-target DPS), a non-paladin tank couldn't hold the mobs. So, CC.
I have trouble seeing Soothe as CC; it more keeps them from joining the crowd than controlling them once they do. Kind of a moot point, though, as according to MMO-Champion the Druid version is changing to an enrage dispel (and, presumably, so's the Priest version).
I keep hearing, though, that AoE attacks took a pretty big nerf across the board; right now they're generally worth using any time you get three or more mobs; it may take more for it to actually be worthwhile in Cataclysm, even leaving aside CC issues. And, of course, single target reduces the damage your tank is taking faster, too.